VTEC OR NON-VTEC Engine?????
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View Poll Results: VTEC OR NON-VTEC Engine?????

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  • VTEC

    47 88.68%
  • NON-VTEC

    6 11.32%
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  1. #1
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    VTEC OR NON-VTEC Engine?????

    1. VTEC
    2. NON-VTEC

    We are listing under NA cars, so ignor turbo Nirous and supercharger setups

    (ini gw dapet dari website d-series.org,dan gw bingung banyak banget pro dan kontranya.
    nih cuplikan pendapatnya)
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTuna
    :bull: :bull: :bull: Honda has had motors blow up vtec and non vtec, a motor is a motor and not every factory motor is built perfect. In the last 15 years Variable valve timing and lift systems have been released by multiple car companies for one reason. EMISSIONS!!! Big cams gives good power and emissions at high rpm but have horrible emissions in low rpms. Small cams have great emissions down low but become very inefficient and crappy emissions higher in the RPM band. Vtec is a combination to get the best of both worlds, for emissions not for max power.

    Whats the difference between a NONVTEC and VTEC motor if they have IDENTICAL cam profiles? Same lift, duration ect... Its been proven over and over again that you can make plenty of power on nonvtec motors. Nonvtec motors have great linear powerbands compared to the peaky power bands of VTEC motors. Build what you want...

    I have a very quick NA D16Z6 and I cant wait to swap over to a NONVTEC head with a practically identical camshaft. I like NONVTEC heads and motors, esp when you bust some Mad cRazy VteC Yo morons ass at the track.
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan89crx
    guess what? vtec was designed for fuel economy, not powerl
    Quote Originally Posted by 4gExpress
    Non Vtec FTW....

    Vtec is not a "Power Adder".... It just gives the convenience of a mild cam profile. It then shifts to more of a wild cam profile when you really want it. While it's a cool technology, it upsets me that people think it adds power and is one of the reasons I don't like it. But then again, i'm all about keeping it original... if you have an EG keep the Z6, if you have an EF keep the A6, as far as SOHC is concerned.
    TERUTAMA YG INI:
    Quote Originally Posted by 1991rex
    i agree with the above posts, vtec is almost a ricer feature..why do u car that didn't even come with it with stickers saying vtek and other incorrect spellings? more for emissions reasons than anything i don't dispute the mild/ wild cam theory but in my opinion not the primary reason honda developed vtec... i prefer non vtec was trying to build a hi-compression head but when that fell through went the route of a y8 mini me- more for the compression jump than the vtec, the head i WAS building would have had similiar compression chamber design as the y8 and as bisimoto has proven the design works!
    Quote Originally Posted by diegoaccord
    I've had all 3 D series configuraions. SOHC, VTEC, DOHC.

    You people say that VTEC isn't important, but why does a VTEC head gain you 20 HP?

    And then, you still need like a stage 2 cam, I/H/E to make a SOHC NON VTEC have the performance of a stock SOHC VTEC. There is NO downsides to not having VTEC, unless you have a DOHC ZC.

    I want to form the opinion that since VTEC is synonomous with B series, that it might be hated here. Further, to hear a chipped D16 crack VTEC late, and sound like a B series, probably pisses you all off.

    It's either that, or the "I like it because I have it" thing.

    Well, I have a SOHC non-VTEC, and I'm gonna go with DOHC or VTEC. The non VTEC SOHC's are so fucking lethargic, and for NA, I'm not shelling out $1500 for 115 WHP.
    Quote Originally Posted by HondaPACT
    I wrote this in another post...

    Vtec just makes it streetable, Vtec is great for daily Drivers...you can make 200whp and still get good MPG, Vtec is pointless in a car that isnt ment for daily driving...It just creates tuning problems for dedicated Race cars, I dont agree with Photonic_Si at all...for the above reasons... why would Vtec help in peak power production?, choking the motor till 5 grand then letting it breathe?, I understand it helps a little for low end torque but in racing the engine will never see below 3 grand so its pointless...Vtec is for street cars to maintain MPG and thats it, there is no advantage to having Vtec in a race, Mini-Me's and other Vtec setups make more power because they have a higher lift and duration then Non-Vtec...if you put that same cam profile in a non vtec it would smoke the Vtec...
    dan ini juga yg makin bikin ragu gw:
    Quote Originally Posted by transzex
    fuel to the fire.........

    How many NA nonVTEC D's in the 10's? - ONE
    How many NA VTEC's in the 10's? - N O N E !
    dan penjelasan yg gw dapet dari jt-sports itu ada vtec/main lobe yg bisa membuat high rev makin mantap.

    yg jadi pertanyaan gw sebenernya buat maen NA sebenernya lebih baik vetc tetep ada,atao dicopot aja atau diubah sistem atau gimana??

    I'm serious,mohon jangan OOT.

    thx

  2. Delapan Satu
  3. #2
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    dan ini sebagai bahan pertimbangan yg terakhir:

    Quote Originally Posted by Clutchmaster
    ehh.....huh....I stomp on vtec all day long.....vtec is nothing to a leniar power bang like in a non vtec application and i was doing that before i added my cam it takes that extra 20hp in vtec to catchup to car who has a smooth delivery now from a roll vtec is pretty convient but not a earth shattering event beisdes isn't vtec only on the exhaust side on SOHC D motors where as in a B series you have intake and exhaust but then like SQAD said there torqueless wonders, I'd rather have a smooth power band with HP and TQ close to one another IMO Vtec is just a poor mans nitrous now if there was something like a 80hp difference between vtec and non vtec then there something to look at like it's been said before vtec doesn't give you more power it just gives you what you already have at a later time in the band where as in a non vtec you get your power over a steady period of time
    Quote Originally Posted by civicsurfer
    non - vtec plus boost=orgasm
    :smt003
    Quote Originally Posted by turbohappy
    Stock, the SOHC VTECs don't make much more power than they could non-VTEC, but with the right cam it makes a bigger difference. Can run lumpy up top without killing low-RPM power. Not all that impressive (since it's not both sets of valves) but it will be more driveable for the same amount of N/A max power.
    Quote Originally Posted by honda tech
    i really dont get why you wouldnt want a vtec in your honda, thats what sets you apart from owning some dumpy nissan or mitsubishi or somethin, vtec all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, n ive been reading through this thread, somebody(HONDAPACT) said vtec chokes the engine then lets it breath when it actuates, 1st off no, any rpms below vtec actuation is all motor(non effected by vtec), when vtec locks the lobes together, they act as one and bring your motor beyond its full potential, its like giving your car addrenaline, second people can say its for economy all day long, no, its to give economic engines a little more power when needed, unless you want one for economy, and thats what they call the VTEC-E where the engine actully acts as a 12 valve then once again vtec saves the day and bring it back up to a 16 valve,now thats the engine choking itself not vtec, SO GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT AND STOP LYING TO YOURSELVES, VTEC IS THE ONLY WAY
    Quote Originally Posted by honda tech
    plus look at the statistics, non vtecs never pull as much as the vtecs stock when it comes to the comparible motors, for example:d17a2 127hp, 114tq VTEC, as compared to the d17a1, NON VTEC 115hp, 110tq, whats the power adder, hhhmmm i wonder, could it be VTEC, i believe it is, do you need any more examples, i got more-y8vtec to the y7nonvtec(even the vtec E in the a6 has more power the the non vtec a1, and thats the one thats actually meant for economy) so whatcha know bout vtec now buddy
    aduh2 jadi bingung,mohon master2 khususnya honda bantu beri pencerahannya donk,jadinya buat NA itu lebih baik VTEC atau non-VTEC??

    thx

  4. #3
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    huehue, gw juga jadi ragu setelah baca thread lu ini.

    trs gw cari data2nya dgn surfing di web2.

    "Optimal low RPM valve timing, lift and duration settings would result in insufficient fuel and air at high RPM, thus greatly limiting engine power output. Conversely, optimal high RPM valve timing, lift and duration settings would result in very rough low RPM operation and difficult idling. The ideal engine would have fully variable valve timing, lift and duration, in which the valves would always open at exactly the right point, lift high enough & stay open just the right amount of time for the engine speed in use."

    ini yg bisa gw simpulkan :

    1. VTEC digunakan untuk mengatur valve timing sehingga optimal di rpm atas maupun bawah. And ini fiture sangat berguna untuk kendaraan harian ... yg memang tidak dihajar trs di high rpm.

    2. Memang bener kata2 org diatas ... untuk balapan sebaiknya tidak perlu VTEC ... alasannya mereka sudah disetting & suited well untuk high rpm , itupun settingan hrs benar sehingga dapat menghasilkan high performance. Drawback-nya, di rpm bawah car will run very poorly.

    mohon maaf sebesar-besarnya kalo gw salah + harap dimaklumi :smt010
    maklum nyari datanya ga sampe ke dyno test-nya segala ... jadi bukti (approval) -nya itu ga ada. manalagi gw juga ga pernah denger soal kaya beginian sebelumnya.
    tapi yg bisa gw tangkep ya segini ini & gw tetep dukung VTEC (masih make mobil buat harian bukan balapan)


    mohon bantuan para master2 yg lain. :smt001

  5. #4
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    5 Days 11 Hrs 7 Mins 56 Secs
    yah mnurut gw mndingan vtec lah.. bukannya apa2.. gw juga ga gtu ngerti mesin.. tpi kan klo bwat gw pribadi.. mobil masih bwat daily use... gw masih butuh kehematan.. bukan performance murni..laen hal klo bwat balap bner2..itu si gw ga tau.. tapi slama masih bwat dipake jalan2.. gw milih vtec..ud jelas tenaga yg dihasilkan sangat lumayan namun masih ramah di kantong soal bensin..ya ga? vote for vtec..
    GD3 L15A Vtec standar mampuss...

  6. #5
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    when i had my ITR i would choose VTEC kalo ada option di tuh pool gue pilih double VANOS w/ 3 stages induction system hueheuehehe

  7. #6
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    gw sedikit mengulang basic2 vtec agar bisa ada gambaran lagi dan kepada para newbie yg baru mengenal lebih dalam ttg vtec:

    VTEC


    VTEC is one of Honda's greatest invention. Though an undisputed expert in turbocharging as evidenced by years of Formula-1 domination while Honda was active in the sport, Honda's engineers feels that turbocharging has disadvantages, primarily bad fuel economy, that made it not totally suitable for street use. At the same time, the advantages of working with smaller engines meant that smaller capacity engines with as high power output as possible (ie very high specific-output engines) are desirable for street engines.

    Thus Honda invented VTEC which allows it to extract turbo level specific output from its engines without having to suffer from the disadvantages of turbocharging (though VTEC introduces disadvantages of its own).

    The Temple of VTEC is specifically created by Jeff Palmer as a dedication to this great technology and the Temple of VTEC Asia is dedicated to the home of VTEC -and of Honda, Japan and the region of Asia.

    In this permanent feature, we will examine the basic mechanism that make up the VTEC technology as well as the various implementations of VTEC.


    The Basic VTEC Mechanism

    The basic mechanism used by the VTEC technology is a simple hydraulically actuated pin. This pin is hydraulically pushed horizontally to link up adjacent rocker arms. A spring mechanism is used to return the pin back to its original position.

    The VTEC mechanism is covered in great detail elsewhere so it is redundant to go through the entire mechanism here. Instead we will look at the basic operating principles which can be used in later sectionse to explain the various implementations VTEC by Honda.

    To start on the basic principle, examine the simple diagram below. It comprises a camshaft with two cam-lobes side-by-side. These lobes drives two side-by-side valve rocker arms.

    The two cam/rocker pairs operates independently of each other. One of the two cam-lobes are intentionally drawn to be different. The one on the left has a "wilder" profile, it will open its valve earlier, open it more, and close it later, compared to the one on the right. Under normal operation, each pair of cam-lobe/rocker-arm assembly will work independently of each other.

    VTEC uses the pin actuation mechanism to link the mild-cam rocker arm to the wild-cam rocker arm. This effectively makes the two rocker arms operate as one. This "composite" rocker arm(s) now clearly follows the wild-cam profile of the left rocker arm. This in essence is the basic working principle of all of Honda's VTEC engines.

    Currently, Honda have implemented VTEC in four different configurations. For the rest of this feature, we will examine these four different implementations of VTEC.


    DOHC VTEC

    The pinacle of VTEC implementation is the DOHC VTEC engine. The first engine to benefit from VTEC is the legendary B16A, a 1595cc inline-4 16Valve DOHC engine with VTEC producing 160ps and first appearing in 1989 in the JDM Honda Integra XSi and RSi.

    Examine the diagram of a typical Honda DOHC PGM-Fi non-VTEC engine on the left, in this case the 1590cc ZC DOHC engine. Note that each pair of cam-lobe and their corresponding rocker arms though adjacent, are spaced apart from each other.

    In the DOHC VTEC implementation, Honda put an extra cam/rocker in between each pair of intake and exhaust lobes/rockers. The three cam/rocker assemblies are now next to each other. The new middle lobe is the "wild" race-tuned cam-lobe. Using VTEC to link up all three rocker arms together, Honda is able to use either the mild or the wild cam-lobes at will.


    Note : Though the ZC and B16A are well-suited to illustrate the difference between plain-DOHC and DOHC-VTEC, the B16A engine is not derived from ZC. In fact, ZC and B16A have different bore and stroke. The same applies for the B18A and B18C engines used in the JDM Integra series.

    DOHC VTEC implementations can produce extremely high specific outputs. The B16A for standard street use first produced 160ps and now 170ps. In the super-tuned B16B implementation used for the new JDM EK-series Honda Civic Type-R, 185ps was produced from the same 1595cc.

    DOHC VTEC can also easily offer competitive power outputs to turbocharged engines for normal street use. For eg, the E-DC2 Integra Si-VTEC produces 180ps from the 1797cc DOHC VTEC B18C engine. This compares favourably to the 1.8l version of the RPS-13 Nissan 180SX which uses a 1.8l DOHC Turbo-Intercooled engine which produced 175ps.


    SOHC VTEC

    An alternative implementation of VTEC for high (versus very high) specific output is used in Honda's SOHC engines. SOHC VTEC engines have often been mistakenly taken as a 'poor' second-rate derivative of DOHC VTEC but this is not the true case. An SOHC engine head has advantages of a DOHC head mostly in terms of size (it is narrower) and weight. For more sedate requirements, an SOHC engine is preferable to the DOHC engine. SOHC VTEC is a power implementation of VTEC for SOHC engines with the express intention of extracting high specific output.

    Examine the diagram of a standard SOHC cam assembly on the right. Note that the pair of intake rocker arms are separated but adjacent to each other.

    In the SOHC VTEC implementation (diagram on the right), Honda put a wild-cam lobe for the intake valves in the space between the two rocker arms.

    Note that the two exhaust rocker arms are separated by the two intake rocker arms and the "tunnel" for the sparkplug cable connector. This is the reason why Honda implemented VTEC on the intake valves only.

    SOHC VTEC engines are high specific output forms of the standard SOHC engines. The D15B engine used in the Civic/Civic Ferio VTi models (EG-series 1991 to 1995) gives 130ps from a 1493cc capacity. Bear in mind this kind of power levels are normally associated with 1.6l DOHC or even milder-tuned 1.8l DOHC fuel-injected engines !


    VTEC-E

    A novel implementation of VTEC in SOHC engines is the VTEC-E implementation (E for Economy). VTEC-E uses the principle of swirling to promote more efficient air-and-fuel mixing in the engine chambers. VTEC-E works by deactivating one intake valve. Examine the diagram below.

    In the SOHC VTEC-E implementation, only one intake cam-lobe is implemented on the camshaft. Actually it is really a flat "ring". In operation this means the relevant rocker arm will not be activated causing the engine to effectively work in 12-valve mode. This promotes a swirl action during the intake cycle. VTEC is used to activate the inactive valve, making the engine work in 16-valve mode in more demanding and higher rpm conditions. Honda was able to implement air-fuel mixture ratios of more than 20:1 in VTEC-E during the 12-valve operating mode. The SOHC VTEC-E engined EG-series Civic ETi is able to return fuel consumptions of as good as 20km/litre or better!!


    SOHC VTEC implemented for power is often mistaken as SOHC VTEC-E which is implemented for economy. It is worthwhile to note that the 1.5l SOHC VTEC-E used in the JDM Honda Civic ETi produces 92ps. This is in fact less than that produced by the standard 1.5l SOHC engine's 100ps which uses dual Keihin side-draft carburettors. SOHC VTEC in the D15B produces 130ps. This is 30% more than the standard SOHC implementation !


    3-stage VTEC


    Examine the SOHC VTEC and SOHC VTEC-E implementations. The clever Honda engineers saw that it is a logical step to merge the two implementations into one. This is in essence the 3-stage VTEC implementation. 3-stage VTEC is implemented on the D15B 1.5l SOHC engine in which the VTEC-E mechanism is combined with the power VTEC mechanism.

    Many of us probably has laughed at the poor ignorant layman who said "I want power AND economy from my Honda". We know of course that power and economy are mutually exclusive implementations. Honda decided not to abide by this rule. Now, with 3-stage VTEC, we get BOTH power and economy !.

    The diagram below illustrates the 3-stage VTEC implementation. The intake rocker arms have two VTEC pin actuation mechanisms. The VTEC-E actuation assembly is located above the camshaft while the VTEC (power) actuation assembly is the standard wild-cam lobe and rocker assembly.

    Below 2500rpm and with gentle accelerator pressure, neither pin gets actuated. The engine operates in 12V mode with very good fuel combustion efficiency. When the right foot gets more urgent and/or above 2500rpm, the upper pin gets actuated. This is the VTEC-E mechanism at work and the engine effectively enters into the '2nd stage'. Now D15B 3-stage works in 16V mode (both intake valves works from the same mild cam-lobe).

    Stage 2 operates from around 2500rpm to 6000rpm. When the rpm exceeds 6000rpm, the VTEC mechanism activates the wild cam-lobe pushing the engine into the '3rd stage', the power stage. Now the engine gives us the full benefit of its 130ps potential !

    The 3-stage VTEC D15B engine is used on the current EK-series JDM Civic/Civic Ferio VTi/Vi together with Honda's new Multimatic CVT transmission. Stage-1 12V or "lean-burn" operation mode is indicated to the driver by an LED on the dashboard. The 2500rpm cutover from lean-burn to normal 16V operation in fact varies according to load and driver requirements. With gentle driving, lean-burn can operate up to 3000rpm or higher. Stage-3 may not always be activated. The Multimatic transmission has a selector for Economy, Drive, and Sports mode. In Economy mode for eg, the ECU operates with a max rpm of around 4800rpm even at Wide-Open-Throttle positions.

    The essence of 3-stage VTEC is power AND economy implemented on a 1.5l SOHC PGM-Fi engine. Many people mistakes 3-stage VTEC as a "superior" evolution of the power oriented DOHC VTEC implementation, describing DOHC VTEC as "the older 2-stage VTEC" and implying an inferior relationship. This is totally wrong because DOHC VTEC is tuned purely for high specific output and sports/racing requirements. 3-stage VTEC is in truth an evolution of SOHC VTEC and VTEC-E, merging the two implementations into one.


    Implementations of VTEC in Honda models


    DOHC VTEC is the implementation producing the highest-powered engines and used in the highest performing models in the Honda line-up. The smallest DOHC VTEC engine is the legendary B16A. A 1595cc 160-170ps engine that first appeared in the 1989 Honda Integra XSi and RSi, it now powers the famous Civic SiR models. The B16B is a special hand-tuned super high output derivative of the B16A giving 185ps and used in the Civic Type-R.

    The B18C is a 180ps 1797cc engine that appears in the high performance Integra line-up. The B18CSpec96 is a special hand-tuned super high output version of the B18C giving 200ps and used in the legendary Integra Type-R.

    DOHC VTEC implementations now appear in most of Honda's great line-up. The Accord SiR used to have a detuned 190s H22A 2.2l DOHC VTEC which was also used on the same period Prelude Si-VTEC in which it gave 200ps. The current Accord line now has a 2.0l DOHC VTEC engine that gives 180ps and 200ps in the Accord SiR and SiR-T models respectively while the current Prelude SiR still uses the H22A 2.2l DOHC VTEC engine giving 200ps. A special hand-tuned version of H22A is used in the Prelude Type-S and gives 220ps.

    The highest level of DOHC VTEC implementation is of course in the NSX. Implemented V6 DOHC VTEC, originally in 3.0l and now in a larger 3.2l form, it tops the 280ps "legal" limit imposed by the Japanese government for stock street cars.

    SOHC VTEC appears in more guises in the Honda line-up. The smallest SOHC VTEC engine is the D15B, used on Civic and Civic Ferio VTi/Vi models in Japan. The D16A 1590cc SOHC VTEC (power) engine giving 130ps is also used on the Civic Coupe and the Civic Ferio EXi (a 4WD model). SOHC VTEC also appears on the Accord models but not the Integra or Prelude line-up. In fact in markets which Honda considers not sufficiently advanced to warrant the DOHC VTEC engines (Malaysia being one of them), Honda markets SOHC VTEC as the top engine for their line-up.


    Conclusion


    In this permanent feature, we have examined the basic principle on which VTEC works as well as the various implementations of VTEC. In a follow-up feature, we will look at alternative variable valve timing mechanisms which are implemented by other manufacturers.

  8. #7
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    ok lanjut ke masalah.
    pokoknya biar gak keliru sebelumnya gw menjelaskan

    ini threat khusus perbandingan antara vtec dan non vtec dalam arti bukan vtec dengan dsi.

    soalnya dalam design dan jumlah busi,valve aja uda beda dengan dsi,jadi ini diacuhkan saja.(maksud saya diluar bahasan)

    nah ini khusus mesin yg designnya sama(series,number series),yg beda hanya di vtec dan non vtecnya.

    masalahnya,yg gw pengen bahas di sini bukan hanya sekedar vtec buat harian,dll(dibahas juga gpp c)
    tapi khusus bagi mereka yg pengen mengejar performance,nah 2 option di atas yg bener2 banyak pro dan kontranya,oleh karena itu,gw minta masukan2 dan pendapat2 yg bener2 bisa meluruskan atau setidaknya mendekati konsep yg benar.

    dan ada lagi,kalo andaikan nonvtec pilihannya,
    nah bisa gak kita melawan hukum2 alam yg dibuat oleh Honda(kan manusia juga yg bikin),bahwa kita bisa menghasilkan mesin honda di mana tenaga&kemampuan bisa melebihi mesin2 vtec yg diklaim oleh honda berkemampuan tinggi??

    kan banyak tuh di luar2 sono orang2 "gila" yg pengen tau kebenaran dengan melawan hukum2 alam,khususnya nih antara vtec&non vtec.

    dan juga ini salah satu post yg bener2 menarik banget buat gw:
    Quote Originally Posted by sugarfree
    wait wait.... ini pada omongin toda vtec killer cam? if u do, then... its not a factory honda....!!! soalnya dr yg g baca, gw punya feeling kl byk yg menganggap vtec-killer itu dari honda-nya.

    kl toda vtec killer cam yg lo maksud, itu cuma bikin mesin lo jd non-vtec. cabut vtec-lobe doang. tp... kl lo pake itu camshaft, otomatis lo perlu cyl head & cam-retainer bars yg sesuai.

    cara kerjanya si ya biasa aja, kyk camshaft biasa (non-vtec). tp bedanya, cam-shaft tsb uda di tune utk menghasilkan performance yg lbh tinggi. jd valve lift lebih gede, etc etc. u hav to go to their website.

    more info: http://www.todaracing.com/products/honda_b16a_b18c/vtec_killer.html
    kenapa juga tuner ternama seperti toda malah mencabut vtec??

    ok mohon dengan sangat bahasan2nya dari para master guna masukan2 yg berharga,khususnya pengguna mesin2 berteknologi seperti ini/serupa.

    thx

  9. #8
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    wow.. im confused now..
    but from what i read, i conclude non-vtec for pure madness and vtec for daily power cruise ride..

  10. #9
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    wididdiiiihhh..

    kok jd binun ya gw?

    tp sih iya,dari bacaan sih gt..gw setujuh ma odi..
    non-vtec bwt sembalap,,vtec mah harian ajah..

    hidup NA deh! (tau2 besok gw malah psg turbohh..hue..ngarang!)

    tunggu jawaban para dedengkot modcom aja lah..

  11. #10
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    VTEC emang TOP buat fungsi nya buat punya dua karakter didalam satu mesin kudos to honda but i can tell you its nothing to brag about..
    kalo emang VTEC is "something to brag about"kenapa yah gue pasingin keong di ITR gue..

 

 
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